Journalist: Silvio, welcome to Albania, and also welcome to Inside Albania. It's a pleasure to have you today.

Ambassador: Thank you! Thank you very much! I'm also very pleased.

Journalist: You've been in Albania a few months now. What is your experience of Albania, like compared to your sort of impressions or expectations before?

Ambassador: Yeah, five months, actually. Better than I thought. I had already good expectations because a lot of people that I know and I trust told me, you're going to love it, you're really going to like it. But, it was beyond my expectations in the sense that, first of all, I felt at home quite quickly. You go to the supermarket, you see Italian products and you kind of feel at home. And the fact that people... you know, the question you just asked me, how do you feel in Albania, I get it all the time. People really like to know whether you feel welcome and I really appreciate that. It's a question of national pride, but it's sincere, it's not nationalistic or anything. It's really because they like their country and they want other people to like it. So that's great. And of course, the timing of the relationship between EU and Albania, it couldn't be better. It really makes my job very rewarding, very relevant also for ordinary Albanians. So I think it's really, really nice.

Journalist: And of course, you get this question all the time, but like you just said, Albanian people really want to know the answers to these questions because they're proud and because they want you to feel welcome. You must have travelled around a bit. Where are your favourite places so far? 

Ambassador: I loved Butrint. I knew that it was in a kind of special location with the lagoon and the sea and the canal. But it was so beautiful walking around those ruins, and appreciating not just the archaeological side, but the nature around it. I find it very romantic, very poignant, you know, and, I love the mountains. The mountains really impress me, both those in the south and those in the north. And sometimes you kind of... you feel the Mediterranean, you feel the Adriatic, and then you see these Alps, you know, stretching before you. It's something I haven't seen before. Although I come from Verona, I'm used to the Dolomites, which are impressive mountains. They're the best in the world, of course, but, Albanian Alps come second.

Journalist: This is one of the things I love, you know, especially in the north. You can go for a hike in the mountains in the morning and then go and relax on the beach and feel that you're in some paradise, you know, in the afternoon or a couple of hours later. It really is accessible.

Ambassador: It is. It's a unique combination, I have to say.

Journalist: It's a small country. One of my friends said, you know, Albania is very small. It's... you know... it's not very big. I said, yes, but the problem is the roads. If they went in a straight line, it would be fine, but they tend to go a very complicated way.

Ambassador: The roads make it look big. Yes.

Journalist: Now I want to talk about the fact that the EU has allocated €70.65 million for social inclusion in Albania. This is a hefty sum, which is great, but can you tell me a bit more about this project?

Ambassador: I was very happy when I arrived to hear that we had also this program, because, of course, maybe we're known more for what we do in terms of road infrastructure, railway infrastructure, now the refurbishing of 63 schools damaged by the earthquake. So these are all visible stuff. Then, of course, there's all capacity building and help the Albanian government carry out the reforms they need to do. But what I felt is that when a country is in transition, when a country is modernizing, going digital, going green, there's always the risk that you leave people behind. And I think that our role here would not be fulfilled unless we also took care of these vulnerable groups. And there are serious situations that need to be addressed. And so this social inclusion program really looks at vulnerable communities, how we can provide help to the Albanian government or local authorities to actually provide social services which are targeted for them. And when I talk about vulnerable groups, it can be people with disabilities, elderly, but also women in sort of risky situations, women who have been the subject of violence, for example, youth, LGBTIQ people. So all these communities, Roma and Egyptians... When I was in Gjirokasta, we met the Roma community there. It was quite moving to see how little money can change their lives. Providing social services, do capacity building, enable them also to stand up for themselves. I think it's, as you say, it's a hefty sum, but it can do a lot of good work. And I'm really proud that we're doing this.

EU in Albania

Journalist: Now within this project EU4 Social Inclusion there is a very special book called Arty the Equal. Now, in the interest of being transparent, I have to say I did do the English version of this; Gentian Minga did the Albanian version. It was translated, and then I rewrote it so it rhymed, basically in English. And this is a story about a young boy who comes home from school, and he's very upset because he's been bullied, and he's talking to his mother. You know, why are people picking on me? And she sits and explains to him about diversity. People look different, they sound different, they have different accents, they come from different places, maybe they wear glasses, they have braces, you know, everyone comes in different shapes and that this is okay. Diversity is okay. And it was a really great project to work on. I believe it's been... the video from it has been nominated for a prize as well. I think it's this week that we'll find out whether we've won or not. But I want to ask you about this project, what you think of Arty, and also the importance of educating children about diversity. Now, I think this word diversity, in English anyway, I see it used in a negative... people say diversity, teaching kids about diversity. You know, there is a sort of more right wing sort of nastiness to this word, which is not correct. So can you tell us about Arty and also why it's important about teaching Albanian children about diversity and inclusion?

Ambassador: First of all, thank you for contributing to the English version. Look, this was an idea that came up in the context of the EU for Social Inclusion Programme, which I think, is really commendable, because I think we have to start from schools and from a very early age to teach children that diversity is an asset, is not a threat. Unfortunately, often when you perceive that people are different from you, you think, it's something as if it was undermining your own identity. And it should really not be seen like that. Diversity is always a source of creativity, innovation, and a society which is intolerant towards what is diverse, can be a violent society. I think violence against women, for example, is sometimes the result of this hostility towards anything which is not fitting into the, let's say, the box that people have created for themselves. And the best way to fight online hate speech, online hate crime, discrimination, I think, is to teach young kids that we are all humans, we're all equal, but we might have different approaches to certain aspects of our lives, be it religion, be it culture, be ethnicity, be it also sexual orientation. And the reason why we give so much importance to it and the reason why we made it the theme of Europe Week this year – it was inclusion, diversity and human rights – is because as part of the treaties of the European Union, we have the Charter of Fundamental Rights. And Article 23 clearly says that any discrimination based on any reasons, including sexual orientation, race, religion or belief, et cetera, is prohibited in the EU. Part of the journey of Albania towards the EU, is also to promote a more open, inclusive society. 

Journalist: Albania is yet to open the chapters of the negotiation process. And in November, we know that the latest assessment highlighted areas which need more work, the ones which we have prepared for, the ones which we're not so prepared for. But now I want to ask you, aside from those, do you see any big challenges in terms of diversity and inclusion, in terms of Albania's accession to the EU, for example? And I'm mentioning this because in Kosovo, Albin Kurti has said that this year they're going to allow same sex unions, which is great. They've said this is part of our EU dream. You know, this is not a topic on the agenda so far in Albania. It crops up every so often. But is this issue, and are there other issues related to diversity, inclusion, which are potential obstacles for Albania at the moment?

Ambassador: Look, same sex unions are not part of the EU acquis. Member States have different practices and different approaches, but I think the fundamental principle is that of non discrimination. So all citizens are equal before the law. And I think currently, at least in some parts of Albania, there are groups like women, girls, members of certain communities, like the LGBTIQ community, that do suffer discrimination, the Roma community if you talk about ethnicity. There is definitely progress that needs to be made in that direction. Respect for minorities is an essential component of the fundamentals chapter as well. We need to address these issues. And we have actually, for this reason, developed a number of projects that are precisely intending to help local authorities, because I think these changes, you know, have to happen locally most of the time. At the central government, you can put in place the regulatory framework, you can adopt strategies, but then it has to be implementation.

Journalist: Implementation.

Ambassador: What is missing, perhaps, is that sometimes strategies are adopted, but then the governance that is needed in order to implement these strategies, also at national level, is not there, because obviously you can give the Ministry of Health and Social Protection the task to implement that particular strategy, but on their own, they cannot do it. And so they need really a whole of government approach.

Journalist: And when it comes to the other chapters, ones that we know need most work, consumer and health protection, environment and climate change, transport, fisheries, food safety, agriculture. Which do you see as being the biggest challenge out of these? Are you able to sort of identify one where you think this is going to be difficult at all levels?

Ambassador: For me, everything that pertains to the fundamental cluster is actually the biggest challenge. The rest, you know, is the question of adopting legislation, creating perhaps bodies that need to monitor or implement that legislation, introducing standards. And that can be done. You just need to develop the technical capacities, you need funding, of course, but it can be achieved. And now that we have this reform and growth plan that will facilitate Albania's access to at least parts of the single market, there will be a huge incentive to adopt those standards. But when it comes to the fundamentals, you know, when it comes to fighting corruption, fighting organized crime, you really have to achieve a systemic change, actually a societal change, because sometimes in situations like this, and I don't want to sound preaching. There are European countries that had the same problems and had to address the same systemic challenges. The level of tolerance in the population is too high in the sense that sometimes they think, if I don't pay a little bribe, I'm not going to get this service. So you really have to change that. In order to change that, I think the first step is the one that we achieved in 2016, the independence of the judiciary. And to see that the judiciary now is starting to deliver, is starting to indict and convict people who are guilty of corruption is a very powerful signal to the Albanian people.

Journalist: You mentioned just now about the challenges of implementation and things. Now, I want to ask you just quickly: the government recently, I think it was around Christmas time, they announced that they might look at using ChatGPT AI to translate all of the European legislation to align with the acquis, etcetera. Do you have a view on this?

Ambassador: Technology is always there to help us. But when it comes to translating the acquis, obviously you will need anyway the revision by lawyer and linguists because the clarity of legal language has to be ensured. And, translating it doesn't mean adopting it, translating it into Albanian legislation it doesn't mean implementing it. So it's definitely a help because it's a massive amount of pages that need to be translated into Albanian. But it will still need a lot of human factor.

Journalist: You still need an army of lawyers and translators to check it. Now, this is a question I've asked many diplomats that have come to Albania and left Albania, and I want to ask you the same. I observe that in Albanian society the media people, politicians, often look to the EU Ambassador, the US Ambassador, the British Ambassador and the German Ambassador almost like guidance. They look for their word, for their guidance and view and this is sort of... and I compare it to other countries I've lived in where I didn't even know the names of these ambassadors. There's no sort of link in the public discourse between them. And I wanted to ask you, do you feel this situation of foreign diplomats playing sort of the peacemaker sometimes is more prevalent in Albania or more developing democracies than other more established democracies? Is this a phenomenon? 

Ambassador: I cannot really compare, but I knew that the EU Ambassador here counts, and what you say has to be weighed carefully. I know the region, and I know that in other countries, the international community played a big role. If I consider also what happened in 2016, of course, the US and the EU were very at the heart of the judicial reform, which was a revolutionary reform. I was aware of the fact that we have an important role to play. But as I keep on saying, I'm also very respectful of the sovereignty of this country. I think it's a mature democracy, and my role is not that of a political commentator. I'm not there to say, oh, this is good, this is bad. I see my role more as saying sometimes, if you do this, it's not really in line with your long-term objectives of joining the EU. This is not really going in the right direction, particularly when it is stated that it is. So I feel compelled to give my opinion. And obviously, I have sometimes expressed my wish that, for example, the situation in Parliament was addressed, that the country went back to normal parliamentary life, simply because I felt that this was a key condition for adopting those reforms that Albania has to adopt. I felt it was part of my role of helping Albania towards joining the EU. Besides that, I really don't feel it is my role to give guidance. Privately, I might convey messages, but I really try to refrain from taking public stances. I had a meeting with some journalists who say, why don't you speak up more, or politicians that send me letters about situations which might be regrettable, but I think they have to be addressed by politicians. It's not for me. 

Journalist: Yes, I think people do put a sort of unrealistic expectation on the shoulders of diplomats. They don't really understand the role as much as they could. Now, I want to ask you about the agreement that's been signed between Albania and Italy. Now, I want to ask about this because in Euractiv I read this week that some 19 other EU Member States have expressed that they are potentially considering the externalization of migration management to third countries. This is huge, if the sources are correct, you know, and there sort of follows on from a potential precedent set by the Albania-Italy agreement. Now, this agreement, in my view, there's been a lot of media scaremongering about it. It's not like there's going to be 30,000 migrants roaming the streets. This is not the case. I think it's very important to be correct that this is a closed center, that they will be leaving Albania once their applications have been processed. But do you think this externalization of EU migration processes is in line with EU law? Can it be done? 

Ambassador: As you know, Brussels did take a stance on this agreement and it said that it was not in contravention of EU law because the migrants or rather the asylum applicants that will be taken to Albania, in order to process their applications will be those who are rescued in international waters by Italian vessels and therefore EU law does not apply to these individuals. So that was the official reaction. I think President von der Leyen also thought, you know, expressed the opinion that this was a way of thinking out of the box and finding solutions to the migratory pressure that some countries like Italy, because of its geographic situation, feel very heavily. But whether this is a most effective solution to the issue, I don't know. The EU has adopted this pact for migration, which tries to ensure that there is greater solidarity between Member States in this critical area. I think also that in the political discourse is important not to sort of demonize the migrants. Often they are the victims of extremely harrowing situations and we should be there to help those who deserve international protection and that should be our main preoccupation. 

Journalist: And also for it not to be weaponized. We have European elections in a month. Migration is a hugely… I mean, we saw it with the Migration and Asylum Pact. It was hugely divisive, controversial. Everyone was fighting. No one could agree, you know, so we have to be careful that this is not weaponized also at a national level, outside the EU, in the EU and also before the elections. And Albania has been waiting quite a long time to join the EU. 2022 was quite tense. Prime Minister Edi Rama did not mince his words in the summer, in Brussels, when the opening of the accession was delayed once again. Now it's open, but we haven't actually started progressing through the chapters. Do you think this delay is due to failures domestically? Is it due to the EU perhaps dragging its feet a little bit? And do you think this maybe idea that Member States must fit, must tick all the boxes before they can join is fair or it should be a more gradual process? 

Ambassador: This is a bit of a tricky question to ask a diplomat, but definitely Albania had to wait a long time. But I think things started changing when Albania took the courageous step of adopting, as I said, revolutionary reform of its judiciary, which was probably one of the main conditions for moving forward in this direction. We now are at a stage where all the elements for starting the negotiations are being finalized. What is encouraging is that Prime Minister Rama, Chief Negotiator Dhuka said very clearly that they don't even want to wait for the official start of the negotiations to start engaging and start already exploring the reforms that can be adopted. So I'm confident that we can maintain the momentum. In addition, the reform and growth plan and the growth facility that's been adopted by Brussels very recently foresee the allocation of a very, very substantive amount of money for Albania, but it's conditional. It's conditional upon very concrete steps, which are, of course, relevant for Albania's accession. So there again, we have incentives for Albania to carry out the reforms, regardless of the exact opening of the negotiations on the different chapters. So it's important that we maintain this momentum, and I'm hopeful that the last hurdles to the formal opening will be removed very soon. 

Journalist: Do you think Charles Michel's statement about 2030 being the next round of enlargement it's realistic? 

Ambassador: I think it's very useful because I think one needs to have an objective, one needs to have a target, and that applies for both sides, not just for the candidate countries, but also for the EU. We need to factor that in. Recently, a think tanker here in Albania was talking about the fact that having 2030 as an objective will also inform the discussions in Brussels on the next multiannual financial framework, this seven-year plan that we have for the budget of the European Union. And that's a very, very appropriate comment, I think. And on the other side, is giving Albania also a target, and that seems to be taken very seriously by the government. So I hope that it will inform all its choices, regardless of the electoral period. 

Journalist: I hope that it does happen by then, because the risk is if it doesn't, people who may not understand the complexities of it being just a phase, it wasn't set in stone, they might feel disheartened or disillusioned with the... 

Ambassador: Yeah, but you know, there's one important change now, is that Brussels also understood that the Big Bang doesn't make sense. When I say Big Bang, it means that you wait until all the formalities, let's say, all the treaty, the accession treaties are ratified, and then finally, you're a member of the European Union and suddenly you have 100%. Now the idea is to have a gradual approach. So you start benefiting from some of the advantages of being a Member State of the European Union before you become a member. And that's also the logic of the reform and growth plan.

Journalist: I think this also allows the European Union and the Member States to adapt to it getting bigger, rather than going from sort of 27 members to 30 or 35 or whatever. It allows gradual changes, adaptation to new economies, etc. And so, yeah, I think this makes sense. Now, the political landscape in Albania, I think it's fair to say, is complex and sometimes... 

Ambassador: Never a dull day. 

Journalist: No, never a quiet day as a journalist and sometimes quite chaotic as well. Now, we've had the Socialist Party ruling for three mandates. We have general elections next year. We have an opposition which is divided, I think this is fair to say. But recently, part of the opposition has given up on disrupting the work of Parliament and parliamentary committees, which is great. Hopefully, we won't see any scenes like Parliament on fire. Do you see this as long lasting? Are you hopeful this is going to continue? Are you happy that this has happened? 

Ambassador: I'm definitely happy and I think I passed several times messages privately and publicly saying that it was important that they would find a way forward and a way forward that would allow the opposition also to play its role. Let's be clear. I just felt that the way in which, part of the opposition was behaving in the Parliament was damaging actually the reputation of the institution and of the country. I'm really pleased that that is over. However, as I see it, the situation and this ‘truce’, let's say, it's fragile and needs to be nurtured. One concern that I have, for example, is that part of the deal was the launch of these two inquiry committees. And I see now that both the Health Committee and now again the TIMS Committee are having difficulties in moving forward and that the majority in the opposition don't seem to find a compromise and that is absolutely necessary. 

Journalist: Yes. Now, as I mentioned, we have elections next year, general elections. It seems like it was only a year ago that it was the last general elections. Luzim Basha was on my show a couple of weeks ago and he said, you know, I'd be willing to reach for the opposition to join together again, to stop being divided. And I mean… I think, I can't imagine the elections taking place in the current situation, there is no strong sort of opposition force, no other smaller parties really that are sort of standing on their own. But looking ahead over the next year, what do you think needs to happen for free, fair elections to take place? And do you support the inclusion of the Diaspora in the general election voting process? 

Ambassador: It's not so much a question of supporting it or not, in the sense that we don't have, again, a consolidated EU practice on this. Some Member States do, some Member States don't, and with different modalities. But I think there's a ruling of the Constitutional Court that needs to be addressed. And I actually read recently that there seems to be now an agreement within this sort of consensus building mechanism that indeed, you know, they need to find a way, be it online, be it by mail. There are competent bodies that can advise politicians here in Albania about the best and most feasible way forward. In terms of free and fair, the OSCE/ODIHR monitored the previous local elections, and I think they made a number of recommendations. I think this should be also part of the package that Parliament needs to adopt in order to prepare for the next round of general elections. And it should do so in the most inclusive way possible. The reason why I'm saying it is that it's important that whatever the result is, it is accepted by all parties. Otherwise, we will start a new parliamentary term already on the wrong footing, you know, with tensions, boycotts, whatever, things that Albania has known in the past. And frankly, in this stage of Albania's history, it should be a thing of the past.

Journalist: It's going to be an interesting year. It's going to be election times, and I always have a couple of sleepless nights for me as a journalist. I want to stay on the topic of the elections. We have the European elections taking place in a month. What impact can these elections have on the Western Balkans, on Albania in particular, in your view?

Ambassador: There is a lot of talk about the elections bringing about a drastic change in the political composition of the European Parliament. I don’t know if you are aware but I spent 24 years in the European Parliament, working there, so it’s an institution that I am very familiar with and still very much attached to. My personal… and please take it as my personal opinion…is that I don’t think it will be such a massive change. In any way, the European Parliament has always worked on the basis of varying coalitions. What I mean is that sometimes, on specific dossiers like climate related dossiers, you would have a coalition, the Greens, the Socialists, part of the EPP. On others there would be the Socialists and EPP, on others there will be the liberals, etcetera, etcetera. I think, in any case this practice will continue and I know that some parties, the Socialists, Green and Renew made a pact not to work with the far-right.

Journalist: Yes the EP didn’t and this concerns me about migration and enlargement, particularly if they left the door open to collaborating with the right and the sort of farther right.

Ambassador: But the European Parliament during the negotiations can accompany them, of course, can comment politically, but doesn’t have a formal role. Opening the chapters or closing the chapters is a decision that has to be taken by consensus by all Member States. So, I don’t see an immediate impact and I think there will be a realization that in fact, what we are talking about is not really enlargement, not enlarging the EU towards the Western Balkans. We are completing the European integration process because Western Balkans belongs to Europe. 

Journalist: Yes, it’s very true. Nice to hear that from you, Silvio. Now my last question. We have covered social inclusion and the reform, but what are your… I mean, when you come to the end of your mandate what’s your sort of check list, your personal check list for having achieved or reformed or being a part of your goals, etc. 

Ambassador: I hope that by the end of my mandate we will have made substantive progress in the negotiations. I hope that we will have further consolidated the justice reform and maybe addressed also systemic issues related to corruption, because the justice reform helped on the punitive side, but we need also to look at the systemic causes and address those. And this is really a whole of the government approach. I hope that I will have helped the Albanian Government overcome sometimes short-termism in their choices and really look at the medium to long-term, what is good for their country. I am also referring to protection of natural areas, sustainable development, sustainable tourism. I hope we will have contributed also to improving the transport system. We were talking about how long it takes to go from A to Z. 

Journalist: I would like the trains to be ready.

Ambassador: I want the trains too, yes. I think it will change dramatically how you experience this country. And finally, I hope that we will have started a conversation on a more inclusive, diverse society in Albania, one where you can also talk about the rights of certain communities without being frowned upon. And I think this is part of the Albania’s journey towards the EU.

Journalist: I couldn’t agree more. Thank you very much!

Ambassador: Thank you, Alice!