"Expectations for this winter are growing darker, but we are staying here in Kyiv", - Interview with EU Ambassador to Ukraine Katarína Mathernová for European Pravda

"The attack on the EU embassy was a warning shot"

– Just over a month ago, Russia attacked the EU Delegation: two missiles exploded right next to this building where we are speaking now. Have you managed to repair everything?

– Apart from a few windows, yes.

The 28th of August is going to be one of the days I'll never forget for the rest of my life. 

About 80 or 90 metres from the EU delegation and about 30 metres from the British Council there were two rockets that hit a small administrative building, and both the blast wave and fragments of the missiles and cluster ammunition damaged our building quite a bit.

Fortunately this attack, which I think was a warning shot, happened at around five in the morning. So thankfully there was nobody in the office from the staff, and our guards who work 24/7 were fortunately in a shelter.

On our premises nobody was injured, but if it had happened during the day, you can imagine what this would do to someone. 

As an example, in one of the rooms we had a refrigerator that was pierced on both sides. A piece of shrapnel went in and out of a refrigerator. 

These are some examples of how our offices looked. The entire ventilation system from the walls was destroyed and a lot of the furniture damaged.

– What will change in the work of the delegation? 

– We are not changing anything. We are staying here in Kyiv. Europe stands with Ukraine, and that includes the full work of the delegation. 

But these attacks are getting closer. 

Ukraine now has attacks almost daily on its energy infrastructure, and most recently on its railways.

– We still remember 2022, when one after another the Western embassies left Kyiv, and then Ukraine altogether. Based on your conversations with your counterparts, can we be confident that this will not happen again, that Ukraine will not be left alone?

– The European Union is keeping the same staff level, and this is true for all the embassies as far as I know.

I have not heard of anybody reducing the diplomatic staff. And in addition to our embassy, others were also affected, perhaps not as severely as we were, but they have suffered some damage. And so far, I think our presence speaks volumes.

"Indeed, we are expecting power cuts"

– You have mentioned – and I fully agree – that we are seeing new priorities in Russia’s attacks. Strikes on railway infrastructure have begun, and attacks on the energy system have resumed. Several major cities are already experiencing power cuts and winter hasn’t even started yet. [The interview took place before the 10 October strike that cut power to the left bank of Kyiv.]

– Attacks on energy infrastructure are not new. While we had two relatively okay winters when it comes to energy supply and heating, indeed, the expectations for this winter are growing darker with every attack. We had two major attacks in the last few days, both on Friday and on Sunday, 3 and 5 October. 

We are very much mobilising – the donor community is mobilising to help where we can. 

We are not starting anew. We have been supporting the rebuilding as well as diversification of energy from the very beginning of the full-scale invasion. The European Union, for example, has committed over €3 billion for energy alone.

The European Union recently supported two large-scale loans – the EBRD €500 million, the EIB €300 million – for the purchase of gas. And there are now discussions about increasing this number, because one of the recent big attacks was against gas production and the gas storage facilities in the west.

Indeed, there are expectations that there may be localised cuts. And hopefully we will be able to get sufficient supply. I mean we are constantly bringing large-scale generators, transformers, supplying resources to purchase gas, as well as increasing electricity imports.

– Will Ukraine have enough gas for this winter?

– Based on our estimates, upwards of one billion euros is still needed for gas purchases to ensure supply. But that’s at the current level of attacks. Should the attacks continue escalating, obviously the needs will grow.

It’s the same with military spending. It is very hard to predict how the situation will evolve. What appeared sufficient in August may look different by October.

– We can’t ignore the elephant in the room – Ukrenergo and its corporate governance, which has raised questions for the Ukrainian government. Do you feel these issues have been resolved?

– The latest part of the evolving discussion about Ukrnergo has been settled well.

We [the G7 representatives] discussed this with the minister [Svitlana Hrynchuk] and with Mr [Vitalii] Zaichenko, the CEO of Ukrenergo, and there is agreement on quickly raising issues and escalating them to the top level if needed. 

This was a big test for a new minister, and I think she passed it well. 

"For trust in Ukraine to be restored, we need time and actions"

– It’s worth recalling the July events, which I call the "July disaster", when the Ukrainian authorities attempted to undermine the anti-corruption infrastructure. Ultimately, the legislation was restored, but recently Enlargement Commissioner Marta Kos stated that trust has not yet been fully rebuilt. What can Ukraine do to restore it?

– With all due respect, I usually reserve the word "disaster" for people dying, or kids being left as orphans, or transport cars of Ukrzaliznytsia [Ukrainian Railways – ed.] being hit.

But indeed, there was an attempt to curtail the independence of two of the anti-corruption agencies. Let's not forget there are a number of others – SAPO and NABU are not the whole anti-corruption system. We have the court, we have the prevention agency, we have the new ESBU [Economic Security Bureau of Ukraine], and we have the general criminal system that also deals with corruption and the courts that render judgments in corruption cases – perhaps of a smaller value, but still.

Indeed, that was a moment when both international institutions, including the EU and Ukraine’s international partners, and Ukrainian civil society and young people went to the streets, signalling that this was not okay. The reaction of the authorities was immediate, fixing most of it – I think that’s what Commissioner Kos was referring to, that not 100% of the first law was dealt with in the law that was passed.

The issues of the rule of law and anti-corruption have traditionally been an area which the European Union processes look at through a magnifying glass.

Before July, European prime ministers and presidents didn't know the words SAPO and NABU. Now they do. 

I think it was an important moment to signal that the functionality, efficiency and independence of the anti-corruption system is an important part of Ukrainian democracy. 

– What do we have to do to restore trust in full?

– Time and actions. 

Trust is a repeat game, right? Just as progress is never linear, there are times when some of the trust is breached, and then you need to continue in your good, open, transparent discussions and relations.  

I have every expectation that this is going to be the path forward. 

– Let me clarify why I say it is a disaster, because I truly believe it is. Ukraine’s future lies in the European Union. If the state undermines the European way of thinking, we won’t have a European future. To me, this is a real disaster. It’s about whether my country will have a future at all.

– As significant as July was, and as vigilant as the leadership in Europe will be, I don't think that this diminished your European future in the sense of breaking it. 

That's why I prefer not to use the word "disaster". Because things are not broken. Things may be chipped, and one will need to work on restoring trust fully. 

– There are ongoing cases that many people, especially within civil society, see as a continuation of the attacks on NABU. Do you think these attacks are still happening, and does Ukraine’s leadership understand how important this issue is for our European path?

– I think that the July events were very important for that full understanding. 

I don't want to speculate on individual attacks, but you mentioned something that is really a critical part of Ukraine's success, Ukraine's resilience, and Ukraine's democratic past and democratic future. That's the strength of civil society. That's the strength of independent media and generally very open public discourse.

It is amazing that we are three and a half years into this brutal war, and you have this plurality and openness of public discourse. 

There is pluralism and inbuilt democratic accountability in that.

For example, recently the Rada [Ukrainian parliament. – ed.] has opened its sessions to the media in a much broader way than they did a few months ago, which is very welcome. 

– Some TV channels are still banned. We still have problems. Are you aware of them?

– Absolutely! But I also see the pluralism around. I also see that views are expressed, views are challenged, views are critiqued.

I grew up under communism, so I know what it is to live in a controlled society, and that's not Ukraine today despite three and a half years of war.

"Don't use the Hungarian minority as the reason why Ukraine won’t proceed to the EU"

– You are now approaching two years as the EU Ambassador to Ukraine. Let’s start by discussing the challenges you’ve faced during your tenure. For example, a year ago you said in an interview with European Pravda that most of the negotiating clusters would be opened by the end of 2025. Of course it’s not the end of the year yet, but that doesn’t seem likely to happen.

– I had several goals. One was to help Ukraine move on the European path. I think we have gone a long way.

I know what you're referring to – that we haven't been able to open Cluster 1 officially, for well-known reasons. But as Commissioner Kos said when she was here last week with the Danish minister for Europe, Marie Bjerre, we are still fairly certain we will be able to open the clusters before the end of this year. 

It's October now, and we'll see in December. 

There is certainly an effort to use the Danish presidency to move beyond the stage where we are now.

One of the reasons why it would make sense is that the maximum effort by a candidate country and the maximum intensity of the dialogue and leverage from the EU side is during the official negotiations. That would be the moment to expedite some of the processes and reforms, so I very much hope that we will move beyond that.

But look where we are already. Last week we finished the full screening of the Ukrainian legislation. That's a process that normally takes two years, and here it was done really very quickly. There are around 1,000 people across the different parts of the European Commission and institutions working on helping Ukraine through this. There is an immense effort. And the same thing is true on the Ukrainian side. 

I think a lot has been achieved, so I'm not terribly disappointed on this front. 

The other area I wanted to work on is to help facilitate as much support for Ukraine as possible from the EU.

The EU is the largest donor now, providing close to €180 billion since the beginning of the full-scale invasion across military production, humanitarian, development aid and macrofinancial assistance. We are by far the largest donor now. 

My third goal was to reach beyond just technical counterparts in the government and to talk to the public and travel. And I have been trying to use my own voice to be out there and talk about the EU.

– By the way, you’ve visited Transcarpathia three times in the past month. Have you had the chance to speak extensively with Ukrainian citizens of Hungarian origin? What have you heard from them, and what are your thoughts on minority rights in this context?

– Protecting minority rights, whether it's ethnic or any other minorities, is in the DNA of the European Union.

That's something we always put a significant focus on. That's the reason why Commissioner Kos started her three-day visit in Ukraine (I think the longest visit of any commissioner so far) in Uzhhorod, visiting a Slovak school and a Hungarian lyceum. Then we had a meeting with the council of ethnic minorities.

There were in fact two quite opposing groups of Hungarian representatives. 

In our very productive and lively meeting, 

there was not a single representative who would not have supported Ukraine’s ambitions for European integration. 

They were all saying "Please don't use us as the reason why Ukraine would not proceed on the EU path." Тhat's very much what I heard in December 2023 [before the EU’s formal decision to open accession negotiations with Ukraine – ed.] when, together with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I organised a trip for a number of ambassadors to Berehove, where a lot of the Hungarian minority lives.

That was shortly after the adoption of the legislation on minorities, and the representatives of the Hungarian minority seemed very satisfied at that point.

Commissioner Kos saw with her own eyes that really there is no issue that would prevent Ukraine from opening the first cluster on account of national minorities. 

– Do you expect that there will be any Plan B to overcome Orbán?

– I think there are still attempts that are being discussed at the leaders’ level now, still during the Danish presidency, to see how to move on the negotiations. 

Part of the problem is that every step of the accession negotiations, however trivial in the process, is subject to unanimity.

At some point you will have to reach unanimity, but that shouldn't stop the reforms going forward and that should not stop the Commission assessing it. 

A lot of the work can be done without having a formal vote, yes. 

You cannot close chapters, but let's see what work can be done. 

One thing is what you have in the treaties that cannot be changed. Another thing is internal rules. There is quite a bit of scope, and that's what we are playing with now. And we hope to exploit it as much as possible during the Danish presidency.

"We’ll find a way to get it done"

– We are waiting for any signals about covering Ukraine’s budget deficit…

– What is now very intensely under discussion is the idea that was announced by President von der Leyen in her State of the European Union address – a reparations loan that would be backed by Russian assets.

This isn’t about using the proceeds of the assets, which we have done already, €1.5 billion of which went through the Danish model directly to the Ukrainian defence industry. That was the use of the proceeds. Also, the ERA loan of last year was backed by the proceeds.

We are talking about a completely new construct: backing a much larger-scope loan, upwards of €100 billion. This would mutualise the risk and the obligations and take it away from Belgium, which is the place that hosts most of the Russian assets due to Euroclear being in Brussels. 

– Is it possible to adopt these decisions without unanimity? Because we see that Orbán is vocal in his intention to veto it.

– The issue with reaching unanimity has been with us for quite a while, and we have always found a way. We have done 18 packages of sanctions. We are finalising the 19th. We roll over sanctions every half a year, and unanimity is achieved. 

We will find a way because there is a need to finance Ukraine.

Everybody wants to do that, there is political agreement on that. 

I'm pretty sure we will find a way to do the reparations loan. 

– Is unanimity required for that decision, or is that not clear yet?

– We’ll find a way to get it done. 

– And the last question. Given the tensions we have with other countries, including but not limited to Poland, we see that Ukrainian goods and exporters are perceived by many as a threat, as competitors. Many people in Ukraine have doubts about whether the EU really wants us.

– I have the benefit of having been on the other side of the enlargement discussions in my own country of Slovakia, as well as of being on the EU side, and also studying the process that existed before. 

This happens in every round of European Union enlargement.

Ukraine is not unique! 

When Spain and Portugal were joining the EU, the Italian and French winemakers were holding protests, saying that it's going to be a problem.

When the "Big Bang" enlargement in 2004 happened – oh my God, Polish plumbers, Czech truckers, everything was a problem, and the labour market was closed to us by most countries for seven years.

The neuroses of the insiders versus a newcomer happen every single time. In your case, with the size of the economy, and the resilience of Ukrainians that everybody sees on their TV screens on a daily basis... Yes, you are scary! But that will be overcome – I would not worry about that.

You have already been practically integrated in the market. What we are discussing are a few items in the agricultural commodities exports. Many of your goods are being traded freely. We are discussing, very constructively, opening the internal market for the industrial visa-free [regime]. I think that's going to be finalised. 

Things are happening, in fact, already. 

The protests and the anxieties of different industrial groups are going to be there. 

They always were there for the ones that accessed the European Union before. And they got in. We got in! 

– You and I will have another interview in a year. What will we see then? What would be an achievement to expect?

– Peace negotiations will be underway with a ceasefire in place. That would be a dream, I think, for everyone. Because everybody is absolutely exhausted.

We will be very busy negotiating six clusters and having the reforms that underpin that work ongoing. 

Sergiy Sydorenko,

Editor of the "European Pravda"

Original is available at the link.